Well, the deeper this crisis gets, the more it looks like our days as a Superpower are numbered. History shows up that empires rise slowly but descend quickly. Have we peaked? It's starting to look like it. The big question to me is, what is next? Is our descent a slow erosion of power or will it be a quick one. We have heard many pundits say that our days of dominance are over and I think if we take a realistic view of whats unfolding we could be up schits creek w/o a paddle if the world loses confidence in our abilities, which by many accounts they seem to be doing.

Flame me if you must as a Chicken Little, but I feel this is a subject worthy of consideration.

With greatly reduced tax payments to the Gov't from this catastrophe, how much longer can we realistically afford to project power throughout the world? I really feel this is a game changer in the global order but don't know who is next up to the plate. Actually I do-most likely China.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0903425_pf.html

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm

That's not true. Decline is generally a long slow process.

Anyway, I'd be happy if a result of this is us starting to pull back from policing the world.

All it took was 7 years under W. Nero would be jealous.

PTR

They said the same thing 80 years ago but the country rose from the ashes of a depression and World War and had some of it's best times after. In order for the forest to grow, it needs to be burnt to the ground every so often.

Mr. Miyagi, is that you??

I'm so lame when it comes to movies...I had to google that.

Its all part of the golbalizatiion process ,its been coming for 20 years. People buying wont they cant afford and charging it , have unleashed the bottom feeders who are now at the top. Throw a few of these corrupt politicians and CEO's in jail and it will begin to turn around , right now there is a lack of trust.

For once I'd have to agree with you, snapperhead. WTF was he talking about.

That's what I love about wingnuts. They're so easily scared and ready to give up.

I encourage all of you who haven't bothered to look back on past crises (from which we recovered) and are ready to throw up your hands and give up - to do it! Go on and jump off that ledge! Rid the world of your whining negativity and let the rest of us pick up the pieces and carry on. We are far tougher than you.

Oh and take McPalin and Bush with you.

I'm not sure I want to know!

Must be friday and everyone's going insane

For the empire to break down, you have to name the barbarians at the gate. Or specifically, if the empire does break down, will it turn the world into another dark ages millennium?

i remember when i was a student in the US back in 92, everybody was saying the same things "end of the empire" "we are toasted"... at the time it was Japan not China that was supposed to be the new big guy... well we'll see... The US always seems to find ways to rebound....

Little known fact; always rebounding is one of our ways of remaining vigilant in our quest to consistently piss off the French.

That and always reminding them of the Judgement of Paris in 1976.

Or the 1924 Paris Olympics.

http://wesclark.com/rrr/1924_rugby_olympics.html

Well cheese louise...if ever you needed an example of the stupidity of the human race, here it is. What's different here from past bear markets is...the f-ing MEDIA is just having a feeding frenzy! Every time a little sanity returns, you see headlines including the words "Depression", "Panic" "Loss", "Plunge", "Desperation" etc. Morons.

Someone sent me an excellent article summaring the last 11 or so bear markets - not as spectacular, for sure, but we always recovered, and we'll recover again.

But it really cracks me up that all these big tough "love it or leave it" types are the first ones to crap their pants and run. I think half the people who are panicked have no idea WHY and probably don't have diddly in the market anyway!

I'm letting it ride...don't have my $1m anymore, but it'll come back by the time I need it.

How the hell is this a Republican/Democrat issue. I think the people on the left are shiiting themselves just as much as the right. You're amazing.

In my best redneck voice: "It's those darn Mescins...it's all a conspiracy of thar darn govurnment of Mesco...they're tryin to bring thar derk skinned peoples, thar language, and their cultyr, and make us the Mescin States of 'Merica! Rome is burning once 'gain"

Actually now that our economy's tankin they're trying to get out...

Who said the Democratic party wasn't compassionate? You libs sound like a pack of wolves.

The Empire isn't over until Dick Cheney stops W from shooting lightning from his fingers at Lynn Cheney, then throws W down a shaft where he explodes.

I don't recall anyone ever saying the Democratic party was not compassionate. Did anyone say that? I wouldn't know, really, not being a registered Democrat.

I'm not sure what wolves have to do with anything - but I would think you wingnuts would welcome wolves so you can shoot them from helicopters, airplanes, Hummers, whatever.

If you LIKE to be surrounded by whiners moaning that the end of the world is near because the stock market is tanking, then bully for you. Smart people know that PANIC is a good deal of the problem. And MOST people do NOT like to be surrounded by whiners who bring them down. And if said whiners are that upset and cannot see any hope for the future then by all means they should take themselves off somewhere inflict their moaning upon each other. Those who aren't so easy to give up the ghost will take care of things.

"When the going gets tough..." (the wingnuts run away)

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote other than the fact that you omitted us entering another World War prior to "Happy Days." But I also think that we're kidding ourselves if we expect things to be business as usual once the smoke clears. This is a game changer for the world. I'm not and never have claimed that this will be like the Great Depression, the dynamics are much different. Shoot

I'm mentioned before and I'll say it again-I have not pulled one cent out of either my or my wife's retirement accounts, so this sucker better come back. And, other than the horror of looking at my statements, this 'crisis' has yet to affect me one iota. I'm still working, my wife's still working, etc...

But I've also seen the dark side of human behavior first hand and instinctually know better than to just happily carry on shopping at Neiman Marcus sipping lattes with Nozzlenut.

The Chinese have not weighed in on this yet...I'm interested to see how they're going to react, because like it or not, they have us by the short hairs.

As far as Nozzlenut's lame azz flamethrowing- I have not yet begun to fight...but am ready to should the need ever arise.

BTW- Nozzlenut says she's not a registered Democrat? Ha!

Sorry, there is no rebounding like yesteryear. The entitlements of this country is choking it. We never had a huge choke on the economic system, and now universal healthcare? It's histarical. We owe $53 trillion in payouts not on the books yet.

We have a 13 year window before we claim insolvency or China calls their notes due. We can't overlook that. It's easy to say we can bounce back like X decade, but we never owed so much, or we were on the hook for so much money owed. It's hubris to think we can eliminate manufacturing, go to consumption based GDP based on credit, then have millions of people say where's mine?

Will this be the end? Nope, but it won't be long. It won't be China, or Japan, or Russia, but people stealing from the people who make money and produce. Savings are down, equity is down, and with higher inflation it going to soak the remaining equity here in short period of time.

Perhaps you need to get some air. The dwight drane juice you've been huffing is making you almost as crazy as him.

Be afraid! Be very afraid!

Even then, that's not a truthful statement.

The misconception about "Barbarians at the Gate" is totally wrong in stating the desires of the so-called "Barbarians." They didn't want to destroy Rome, they wanted to share in its prosperity. They wanted protection from the Huns. Hell, even Alaric didn't burn Rome down. Neither did the Vandals. Indeed, the Vandal kingdom in Africa oulasted Rome in the west by some 150 years, and did so by ruling in Roman fashion.

Rome only "declined" in the west because it refused to integrate the "barbarians" that "illegally" crossed its borders into its culture. Sound familiar?

Check back with me when unemployment's above 12% and people are standing in bread lines, instead of goofing off at work surfing the web....

Good points. I'd love for one of the flamethrowers to try to even conceptually explain a solution to this one. No details, just a general idea of how Motherment is going to work this one out and keep our global standing. Shoot, forget our global standing, how will we survive this as a nation?

But I'm sure our politicians are working hard on a bailout plan that will allow us to do such a thing because we all know they have our best interests at heart...

Maybe we can borrow some more from the Chinese?

I would say absolutely to this if you mean by "empire" the US will no longer try to be the world's cop and unilaterally push policies on the rest of the world too. We can't afford $650 billion defense budgets in order to support an empire. As SNation pointed out, we have an economy that was essentially propped up by non-real factors--finance and real estate (with the healthcare industry as the only other main driver of jobs). Throw in the anger being created in the political arena, and it makes for some difficult times indeed.

Will this create an opportunity for US? Is it possible for US to refocus the economic model from unlimited consumption desires (toys) to sustainable growth? I can imagine a world where the US takes the lead on alternative energy development, building liveable cities, spending more on research to cure cancer than to create wmds, etc. But I don't see the leadership, nor am I certain that a majority of the American people would support this type of change.

Which raises an interesting question: for the most part, like the US itself, there is a sharp divide between the right and left here at PPP; is it possible to come up with a set of economic development goals that the majority of us here would support? Then, could the American people actually effectuate change?

I think the bailout bill showed it's possible to get people riled up enough to get involved, but I don't know if an economic plan could be crafted that would motivate people to do so.
Ok, time to get a beer and stop my idealistic thoughts...

TPS-Thanks for the thoughful and reasoned response instead of the normal sewage from people like Nozzlenut.

We will have to re-evaluate our role as the nations cop. Why do we have so many troops still in Germany twenty years after the cold war as one example? We should and will likely have to escalate our reduction in forces from Iraq and Afghanistan. I think we will quickly find the costs of these wars untenable. While that may have a negative impact on my employment (since I work for e defense contractor), I welcome the reduction as necessary.

I am eager to read Friedman's new book on a 'green revolution' as our next big boom. Since we have lost our manufacturing base, green seems to be the next 'big thing' or opportunity to assist in getting us out of this mess.

I cannot wait for the day that we start to have a serious conversation about our inevitable need to reduce the big three benefits programs. It's got to happen. If Obama is elected, I hope he gives it the attention it needs. But what I've heard from him is promises for increases in Federal assistance, not cuts, so I don't know when the conversation will happen.

I agree about the divide you mentioned. I do have hope though. There are people like Jim Webb out there who are trying to bring the Democrat Party back from the Leftists. I recently finished his book, "A time to Fight" and it encouraging that there are still principled people like him out there.

Alright...it's time for me to get some sushi and beer. Have a great rest of your weekend.

Craziness brings tranquility during chaos.

Since I'm both lucky and crazy now, what shall I be called next? Tune in soon to find out. If you still can.

Speak for yourself jarhead..I like my job

In all seriousness, the "Empire" will survive. The greatest threat to the "Empire" is this...Obama wins. The House remains run by Pelosi (god forbid)...and the Senate reaches 60 Democrats...Enough to stop any Republican filibuster...The End of Days my friend!

I say this because the US was built on checks and balances...this would not be balance. Only the somewhat Conservative Supreme Court could stop the Dems but only after the fact.

I don't get your hate of democrats? Is every action they do 100% wrong or something? You don't suppose they'd do a better job than the guy who's currently ruining our country?

Actually no...GW had a Democrat run congress that kept him in check for the most part. A congress that I might add that has a lower approval rating than him. I seriously cannot stand Pelosi..A San Francisco hippie in power. I'm all for the free market economy but my fear is a Pelosi run congress and an Obama Presidency would lead to too many Socialist policies. I could care less if Obama wins as long as either the house or the senate had a Republican majority but all three in a Demorats hands spells disaster...Checks and balances my friend.

My math says 6 years is a longer period of time than two years. Not sure how you call 2 years "the most part".

Fair enough...Then I guess the current situation can be blamed on them since every thing was good until now.

If you weren't such a wishy-washy, hypocritical liberal, you might consider this before you bang the drum to admit modern day slaves to this country. You know, those people you probably couldn't see from your doorstep with a high power telescope.

Heavily armed illegal alien drug cartels are occupying federal land and poisoning our resources. Our politicians are talking about non-issues, and you are pining away for illegal aliens who drain our tax dollars and fill our prisons. You fit in well with our esteemed presidential candidates.

You should come out of your "libertarian" political closet and hold hands with blzrul. The two of you could go get some medical care with your union sponsored health insurance. Then again, Debbie might not want to appear in public with someone as liberal as you.

Don't misunderstand me, I also love my job. But I have also seen how the contractor world works since exiting the Corps and let's just say I'm not impressed. As a taxpayer it sickens me to see so much money wasted. That is where I'm personally conflicted. I work on a program that I know saves lives, yet the administration of it is near criminal in how the contract(s) are awarded and administered. At the end of the day though I concern myself with the things I can change and don't worry about those outside my sphere of influence.

I share your concern about a Leftist run Government. I don't hate Democrats as conner asserted you do, but I do hate people like Pelosi and her ilk for exactly the reasons you mentioned. And yes, the corrupt Republicans are an example of why having one party in control of congress and the executive branch is a bad thing. We potentially will have our Gov't run by a Leftist in Obama and San Francisco style politics in the house. Very disturbing times indeed.

We have elections every two years, if people don't like the way its going then they'll vote out the Democrats. Right now people are rejecting the Republicans AND gridlock and fear continued inaction over giving the Democrats a chance to right the ship. God knows that power is finite in many ways.

i actually had to "google" that as i had no clue what you were talking about!! Interesting. a little upstet about the whites, as i love Bourgogne Whites but not that much about the reds, i'm no fan of Bordeaux's. Bourgogne reds'd have killed the competition!
Anyway iIf they need some judges for the next time, i volunteer!!

I don't know how it could have been considered as a surprise as the americans had won the 1920 games too (again vs France in the final) ... anyway the USA have not been able to win vs France since (5 defeats since those 1924 games). I'd like to see rugby back in the Olympics, that'd surely help the sport grow around the world and in the US.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. The only difference is who gets their turn at the trough.

In my experience on this subject, this administration doesn't work any differently than the previous ones did. It's a Washington epidemic.

I wouldn't say epidemic but the government says we are actually cheaper in the long run...You don't have to pay retirement or health care to a military or USG civilian if you use contractors. Never was sure about that math.

Something you and me can see eye to eye on cheese eater . I wish it would be an Olympic sport. I play here in Australia and it's a great game. This may be my last year playing though. Almost 40 and the pain does not seem to go away so quickly as it used too. I do feel bad for the Australians NRL teams though, the French Union teams and the English Super League teams pay way more than the NRL. Lots of good players leaving here.

yes those aussies rugby league guys are the new fashion in clubs around here... with mixed results so far... the adaptation from League to Union is not as easy at it looks...

Yeah, what you realize as an athelete playing into your late 30's early forties is that the loss of speed etc is more than compensated for by the knowledge, instincts, and above all the toughness you pick up. What gets you in the end is not diminished ability at all, but the simple fact that every little bump and bruise takes longer and longer to heal, to the point where each week you are still hobbled from the previous weeks game (let alone anything new you pick up in practice!). It gets to the point where you simply can't keep up physically with weekly games.