I know I will get lambasted for this... But, think about it... It is never really known what truly happened.

Look at McCain's erratic behavior in just this election.

Could all the conspiracy theory about this 1967 incident be true... The signs sure point to "maverick" "wet start" behavior even at a earlier time in his life.

Really... Flame away if needed.

But Biden told us that McCain is not really a maverick.

McCain's plane was hit in the port side by the Zuni. The only way a "wet start" cooks off the rocket is if the engine is somehow pointed sideways out over the plane's left wing.

This is SUCH a retarded topic. Even for you.

Hey what can I say...

I don't believe you or what the military says. They have been known to lie.

So you think A-4s have engines sticking out sideways...because the Navy says otherwise?

No.

Just saying they could have put the plane anywhere in their investigation... I don't know, I wasn't even born yet. Why do some Vets and eyewitnesses differ on the investigation?

The Government had their 2nd string conspiracy folks stage the Forrestal. Their first stringers were busy working on the moon landing

I know... I know... Who knows what the eff happened back in especially 1967. ??

Even in this day and age... They said there were WMD's in Iraq and they were ready to use them... That our troops were going to be gased... Blah, blah, blah, blah.

The footage isn't classified. I've seen it. TV specials have been done on it. The plane that was hit, was hit broadside-on.

Unless you're saying they faked the deck footage to protect McCain...for reasons of what, his presidential campaign 40 years later?

I have seen it several times on TV and it is shown in safety films all the time in the Navy. The event is on film.

Dude...Your name should be Exiled to Idiotville...You're retarded, seriously. The accident is captured on film and shown as part of fire fighting training in the Navy. There is now way McCain could have been the cause of the accident. NO WAY!!!!! I don't know what is worse, your sickening manlove crush on Obama or your hatred of McCain.

Nice tagline for him. I seriously think he is a lonely person who is competing with Alaska Darin for most posts. The difference between him and AD is substance. At least AD adds something to the thread. This fool posts inane drivel with his little smiley faces. It's pathetic actually...

The funniest thing about him is that he posts so often he sometimes forgets the tall tales he's posted. For example- a year or so ago he was an engineer, but in the last few months he posted that he reads the board between performing his job as a painter and weedeating. Maybe I misunderstood him. He may actually be an engineer-a janitorial engineer...Ha!

EiN is RIGHT!!!!!

And I think the fact that McCain is referred to as a "fighter pilot" when the guy was really flying "Scooters" on attack runs is yet ANOTHER sign of deception and twisting of the facts by the McCain Campaign.

I did say flame away!



And yes... I am very personally happy in MANY ways!! I wish more could feel the joy I feel... I live a pretty easy life, free of much of the mainstream stress out there!

Financially... Somebody... Just said: "If you don't have a stomach for this market, then maybe you shouldn't be in it."

That has a lot to do with my personal happiness... I sold off a while ago when things were high... I have very minimal loss financially! I haven't used credit in years!

I do feel sad for the many who haven't been as lucky as myself... What I have accomplished really didn't take a lot of hard work... Just stayed consistent in many ways... I have a very loving family to thank... I am still over 500 miles from anyone outside of my wife and children.

Again... I am just very lucky...


And to clarify what I do:


I never said I was an engineer... I have always said that I have been a lock and dam operator... I sarted my career as a hydrographic surveyor in BFLO and the eastern Great Lakes... Was a lock and dam operator at Black Rock Lock for a stint... And then to the Upper Mississippi River when BFLO district went through a RIF... SD, please find me a link where I said I was an "engineer"? I am just a wage grade employee with the USACE, always have been since moving to the midwest... A handsomely nicley paid wage grade, I do admit. We do everything though. I do have a BA, 1990 from UB. The funny thing is... I am not a pencil pusher. We have 13 men (we have had woman in the past, just not currently) at our field site and that job description covers almost everything that makes that site run. The private sector would most closely classify this as an operating engineer... That job title covers a lot... From digging ditches to running all of kinds ofheavy machines, lock/dam machinery, vessels, and what not. It is basically like running a 20+ acre industrial acre site that manages the river and 10's of millions of cargo tonnage annually... Now, mix in 10's of 1,000's personal recreational craft that transit the area and other vessels... Between making sure vessels get locked through and the weeds get chopped to the making sure our 13 person personnel staff get their time to the district offices, that is what we do... 24/7/365... There has never been a time since 1960 that my work site has not been staffed... We are very self sufficent... One minute I may be helping out a new employee get his payroll and health benefits squared away in real time with the computer system... To handling river and gauge levels with other local agencies... To getting the lock wall plowed... And most recently walking back a 1/4 mile (with my tail between my legs) to the site in order to get a little help winching out a tractor from a ditch... Now, mix in a lot of "quiet time." Kinda like a firehouse in the classic sense. I could ramble on.

As you can tell... I am pretty proud of what I do and how we run... I do speak out against the non-functioning aspects of the establishment though... There are drawbacks and things can always run better... Especially in the DOD... IMO, as an agency we are changing for the better though...

Did I say too much? Today is my day off and I am home. Does this help SD?

Back to McCain... I really would like to see the actual footage.

Sorry for the tangent... I just wanted to clear the air.

This deeply disturbs me... It indicates how people think in a "status driven" society. For ME, it is not about status. My job first and formost is about being a "good steward"... At no time does my job suffer, that comes first when I am on duty. Also: A transparent gov't is a better gov't.

I will do what ever it takes to make sure the job is done right and customers are kept safe.



I do talk a lot, I do ramble... But, I also question... Maybe that will not get me "far" in your status driven world... So be it! I will (and have been known to) question everybody in a respectful (maybe you see it other ways) way.

Sorry for changing this thread and addressing the personal diatribes directed towards me. In no way did I personally attack any of the posters here... Maybe offend, but not personally attack. I just questioned the 1967 fire that McCain was innvolved in. I am still open to everything.

Again... I fully expected the staunch personal attacks against me... May this clear the air and hopefully a new type of dialog here on the board.

For the record...I'm not with them up there. I haven't insulted your profession, I've only called you an idiot.


Now go drive your choo-choo train.

I know Tom.

I do have a voice though... And I know it is very important to get that voice out and not remain quiet. You very seldom see this voice from where I am coming from professionally. You are seeing it more as the workforce ages and younger blood in infused.

I am not saying anything I shouldn't... I am being very transparant on what I do... There are a lot of people out there that are caught in the middle and don't say anything, that just fuels more misconceptions...

I think people would have a different perception of what gov't does if they just moved past the classic barriers... And that starts from within... Especially with the people I am surrounded and deal with daily... Professionally and recreationally.

Stay cool. I know my wife and children want to mumble how retarded I am, but they are a little too classy of a family! One has to get dirty now and then... I will look into that video.

I've seen you write about what you do (discussing the New Orleans' flood system with you was very educational). I know the difference between "stupid EII" and "professional EII". You get no problem from me.



I'd start at HistoryChannel.com...I believe they did a special on it several years back that relied heavily on the footage.

Back to the thread.

Linking erratic behavior to safety... People who have erratic behavior tend to have a horrid safety track record. These people also very often find themselves embroiled in other messes, maybe not such much of their own doing.

And I don't mean getting a tractor stuck in a ditch... I am not a maverick... I immediately knew not to keep spinning the wheels only to get stuck deeper...

On one end you have a maverick... Which scares me, they usually get people killed or hurt. On the other hand you have to the quote I think Tom posted here years ago: "A perfect safety record is one's who don't have the balls to live in the real world."

I just think McCain is one of those characters that always has to have his ass covered because of over the top stupid mistakes he makes.

Maybe is not totally to blame... He does have the bad credibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time... It is amazing he lived?

Combat flying favors aggressiveness, and involves pushing high-performance planes to the edge of the envelope...which is why McCain's record w/r/t aircraft losses isn't all that surprising or worrisome to me. The number of aircrew that die from accidents or even simply doing stupid sh-- in high-performance planes is truly amazing. The military does not, however, put a person in control of a plane without teaching them a certain measure of responsibility, as they know it's too easy to get in trouble in an airplane.

I think, what gets lost in this "debate" about McCain's flying record, is the distinction between being a "risk taker" and a "risk seeker". The military wants risk takers as combat pilots - people who can size up a situation and make a calculated decision as to the risk/reward balance thereof. They need them, in fact...if Chuck Yeager wasn't a risk taker, he'd have never become an ace (in a day - five kills on one mission, in Europe no less) and never would have climbed into the X-1 (which had an alarming tendency to explode). They do not want risk seekers - guys who suspend judgement for the sake of an adreneline rush. And that's especially true for carrier aviation, which is, was, and will always include some of the most stupidly dangerous things you can do with an aircraft.

The idea that McCain's flight record demonstrates bad judgement is a fallacy. If it demonstrates anything, it demonstrates largely just the kind of judgement he needed as a combat pilot, balancing safety with the fact that he was doing one of the most unsafe activities on the planet.

Now, whether you want THAT kind of risk-taking judgement in the White House or not...that's another argument.

"I know, Mav.....you had a hard time in flight school, bein' Pete Mitchell's kid and all. But evry' time were up there, its like yer flyin' against ghosts."

Methinks Goose is looking into this too much.

a few quotes from Make-Believe Maverick:



risk taker or risk seeker?

Exactly.

Who's more dangerous and erratic? The funny thing is, they can talk all the trash they want about Obama. Obama, IMO seems a hell of a lot more even keel than McCain. McCain gets a pass merely because he served. That is flat out wrong.

Where is my plimsoll line avatar when you need it! I don't think you want that kind of risk taking in the WH.

Is it possible to know the true personality of a presidential candidate?

I don't doubt Obama is more level-headed than McCain. I just dispute that McCain's flight record is evidence of recklessness. He's lost four planes, including the A-4 on the Forrestal, and only one (the first, low-speed stall on landing) might be considered a lapse in judgement.

Presidential? No.

VP, on the other hand? You betcha!

From what the McCain camp is telling the country... Yes. I am just playing along. They are saying one can pick up pretty good clues.

Doubt it. Particularly from 40 years ago. Don't believe Obama's association with Weather Underground decades ago is any more an insight into who he currently is than I believe McCain's flight record is an indication of who he is. People change in 40 years.

But, my whole point is McCain's erratic behavior now... Choices he has made recently sure points to the fact that maybe he hasn't change.

Case(s) in point:

His tapping of Palin (Okay that was a shameless joke.)
His utter cluelessness of where the economy is.
His choice to suspend his campaig.
Now is choice to enter into a scorch-earth campaign.

He is flat out erratic... Just as he was 40 years ago.

40 years, yes. I hate the liberal whinney heart bleedin liberals even more. .

Check with MG or jk2000, elengence, pastajoe.............

How old is barry? BTW, is that the flavor they serve, berry? ACK.

Interestingly enough, there is a dearth of footage showing the actual firing of the Zuni from across the deck.
I've seen it, but it's not generally available anymore. What's mostly out there is a five part American made reenactment that starts just after the initial explosion.

This is the closest to the original I've seen recently, but it also is a reenactment: The Krauts have the geometry correct. An A4 isn't a Harrier, so even if JM was at full throttle the wet start doesn't hold water. The Skyhawk was nearly at a right angle to McCain's plane and about 50 feet away.

You're missing the overarching theme here: Those were all strategic political decisions, not erratic by any stretch.

No. It is very erratic.

Say what you will 40 years ago... His erratic behavior now points to no credibility in the past.

The guy is all over the board... Worse than me!

Well... That is the way I see it.

Oh yeah? Hows that?

Wow!

You don't see him waffling from tactic to tactic?

Is that how he would govern? By the "seat of his pants"... Err... I mean Depends®...

Now couple that with mind numbing out of touchness like:

"The economy has a strong foundation."

And then basically says a week later

I am suspending my campaign to work on the economy's weak foundation.

WTF? He (McCain) is having Herbert Hoover wet dreams.

The Republican "well" is poisoned... Hey, if some want to drink... More power to them... I am following the branded burro to the safe water supply... Not the unbranded animal (maverick) to the well!

I wonder how it would be treated if someone said Obama would govern by "how the watermelon seeds fell out of his mouth" or something similar.

Oh, I forgot...when a lib makes such a comment its "in jest" or "satire."

On topic....from all accounts, McCain was a stubborn and ham-handed pilot. So what? Judging how he would govern the Nation based on how he flew? Whats next, having a look at how he drives?

"Ya know.....that McCain.....he likes to speed in the right lane...how can such a man be President?!!??"

I don't know... Maybe it is just me... IMO, you can learn a lot about somebody by the way they drive and interact with other drivers on the road.

No?

I just think there are better ways to judge a man's character than by how he operates machinery.

But if were going this route, I can argue that McCain's flying style shows he will be a good, strong President. For example, the bomb run he got shot down on, he should have bailed out of. But he kept flying into the AAA and SAMS, refusing to disengage until he dropped his bombs, which most Naval aviators would do.

Pretty brave, eh?

That's not erratic behavior, that's called campaigning from behind in the midst of a crisis that's about to kill you.

Yes. It is brave. So you are saying he will "stay the course."

Yes. It is not brave. So what you are saying is that he does not "stay the course."

I'm so confused. What does this have to do with war, and even still, how does that apply to McCain who was called for the Surge?

Yes. We both can agree that you are very confused. Please post some coherent thoughts when you can get things squared away!

Until then, go back, take your time and read the posts.

See... We can agree.

I love irony.

Hey, I do too!

Proof MCCain is erratic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX29aF1UjWY