Are the Sox really going to trade the Masher Savant?? It's not like Manny doesn't pull this crap every couple of years.

Anyhoo....Palm Beach paper says a 3 way deal may be in the works; Bay to Boston, Hermida to Pitt and Manny to Florida.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/conte...730ramirez.html

Wow! I didnt know that!

Yeah, I read that yesterday. How the Marlins do what they do is incredible. Hopefully they are funneling those payroll savings to their scouts and farm personnel. Those people earn that money.

Its easy how they do it.

The build a winner, win a championship, and then right after, they dismantle the team and trade anyone worth something away for picks and prospects to build a winner in 5 years and then repeat the process over and over. They keep the player around when they are underpayed and overachieving, and then deal them away when the are ready for a new contract. They are a Major league level Farm Team

Well, yeah...it's easily explained, but the execution is kind of the tricky part.

I mean, here are your steps:

1. Build a winner
2. Win a championship
3. Dismantle and sell talent for prospects.

I'd say parts 1 and 2 might not be as easy as you make it out to be. And the fact they continually have prospects turn into all-stars is pretty impressive. Couple that with the fact that they remain competitive in their "down years" is incredible. They still average like 80 wins per season since 2000.

Do they? cuase I always remember them as being really bad, or really good, usually having very good drafting spots, and with the draft picks/prospects they accumulate dealing the guys that turn into big names, its alot easier to pop out these stars.

I know its not as easy as I explained, or how you explained, but I never remember them being on the verge of playoffs in their down years, and when they do make the playoffs, they end up going deep. Although I have to admit I don't follow the NL that closely. But the Marlins are sort of like the A's of the NL. Except that the A's don't hold fire sales and completly dismantle the team, they just deal away stars before their contracts are finished, and are usually on the verge of the playoffs every year, but never go farther

They had a very rough year or two after their 1st championship/dismantling (like 50-60 wins). And I'm not saying that they finish 1 game from the playoffs each year. But they manage to finish within 5-10 games of the Wild Card each year which, while it isn't anything to get excited about, is INCREDIBLE for a team that has a payroll that is comparable to some individual salaries. How they manage to stay out of the cellar is beyond me and speaks volumes to their scouting and talent development.

easy? if it was easy...everyone would be doing it

si.com is reporting Manny's been traded to the Dodgers, with Jason Bay going to the Red Sox. No details on any other players involved in the deal yet.

Wow. Interesting. I havent found anything on the Internet yet. Though I did find out that big mouth Curt Shilling has said they should trade Manny today. Man that guy cant keep his mouth shut.

Its true, Rosenthal on MSN is reporting it.

Manny to the Dodgers, Bay to The Red Sox, and for guys going to Pittsburgh, one being Laroche

I didn't mean it was easy to continually make a winning team with no payroll, I just meant its easy to explain what they do, they trade away their stars when they want new deals, and get top prospects and Draft Picks for them to continually restock their system.

Any team could do it, but its not easy to sell a fan base because the marketable stars are always leaving and the teams success looks like a roller coaster ride going from bad to great, bad to great, bad to great, over 5 year spans

Thanks for the input, Schilling. Anyone know Bay's contract status- i.e., when does he hit free agency?

It's at least LaRoche and Hansen for the Pirates...
i don't know about Bay's contract but i really like the trade if Bay is not a FA at the end of the season. basically i think playing in Boston he 'll have about the same stats than Manny and he's 6 years younger!!

Wow. Yup, on ESPN right now...Manny to the Dodgers. Glad he's not coming to the NL East.

I think the Sox just screwed themselves.

I think its pretty optimistic to think anyone will have the same stats as Manny in Boston. I'll defer to a pirates fan (tater?), but my impression of Bay is that he brings the power game, but he strikes out a lot and will never be the .300+ hitter that Manny was/is. Even at 36, Manny is a .300/30/100 guy. Bay might benefit from the Boston lineup, but I wouldn't set the bar too high.

I'm with KD...I think Boston (and its fans) will regret this move in hindsight. But then again, I have no idea how bad the clubhouse situation had gotten.

The Sox got hosed. They traded Manny Ramirez, Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, and paid the rest of Manny's contract... all for Jason Bay.

All the Dodgers gave up for one of the best hitters in baseball was Andy LaRoche (who they think is overrated and have been trying to trade for quite some time now) and someone nobody's ever heard in Bryan Morris.

Plus the Pirates got 4 legitimate prospects/players for Jason Bay.

Incredible.

Dude's hitting sub .220 with RISP. You're comparing him to arguably the best clutch hitter in the last decade. Manny may be a pain in the ass but the Red Sox win ZERO titles without him. There are chunks of guys like Jason Bay in Manny Ramirez' stool.

Nice.

Bay has the talent, but as a Yankee official pointed out the other day, the guy has never played in a big game his entire career. You might as well be playing beer league softball as September games in Pittsburgh. Different story when he'll be on the road in New York in front of 55,000 and a division title on the line.

Craig Hansen can't throw strikes. Moss is Eric Hinske light and the Sox have money to burn. They had to make the deal, Manny was going into shut down mode. Some bullpen help would have been nice but Manny's production is slipping big time and I'd be surprised if he puts up power numbers surpassing half his career average in the next few years. Theo made the right call with Pedro, Damon, and Nomar and I'm guessing he made the right one here.

I'm not questioning getting rid of Manny, it most certainly seems like the right way to go, i'm saying the trade was lopsided. We all knew the Sox would want to dump Manny's bagage while also not having to pay him $20 mil, and that they were interested in replacing his bat. An even up trade - Manny for Bay, would lose a lot of production for the Red Sox, but at least its something in return. But to also give up a young prospect that has contributed and a reliever in an already suspect bullpen ON TOP of getting rid of Manny? Outrageous.

Why couldn't they have gotten rid of Manny and returned a less valuable player without giving up anything extra? Thats like trading Brett Favre, Aaron Rouse, and Jordy Nelson for Kellen Clemons. Favre for Clemons should be enough, just like Manny for Bay should be enough. You're already losing production in the deal, no need to give up extra players.

Sure but the were backed into a corner and had no choice. The fact that they got a MLB all-star in return should tickle Sox fans pink..er...red. Hansen and Moss were not considered valuable assets at this point.

We'll see how much production we "lose"... i doubt it will be much if any! The stats Bay has reached playing with NO protection in Pittsburgh could become huge playing in the Boston lineup and at Fenway.

-OR-

The stats Ortiz accrued hitting in front of Manny's protection (not to mention Papi's recent injuries) could leave a HUGE hole in WHAT USED TO BE the most dominating 3-4 punch in MLB.

Fans in Beantown seem to be going out of their way to state that they could be better off, forgetting that 2008 Papi is not 2004 Papi, JD Drew has been painfully average for a decade, Jason Varitek is completely finished, and they have no SS. Youkilis, Pedroia, and silver-haired Lowell are all professional hitters, and Bay (hitting .209 w/ RISP, but hey, he runs out grounders!) may produce...But are not going to bring what Manny brought. Just the psychological aspect of Manny not being there will be huge for opposing pitchers.

The biggest winners on trade day were the NYY, Tampa, Minnesota, Detroit, and anyone else in the AL with an eye on a playoff spot. Do you think Andy Pettite, Roy Halladay, and Scott Kazmir had a conference call last night where they giggled like schoolgirls for an hour?

I'm not sure about this.

If the Sox went in the tank, fell to 3rd in the AL East and the playoffs were out of the question, then yes, I think Manny would've loafed.

If Boston was competing for the playoffs up to the last day of the season, I think he would've produced, no matter what. The stakes are too high in that town, the media coverage relentless, and plus, there's a certain buzz and excitement amongst the fans and the ballclub when you are playing in big games, especially in Fenway park. The place is electric, and Manny always showed up in big moments. The dog days of summer wear on every player. I think once it got into August and especially September, when the games mean a little more, Manny would've produced. He would be essentially playing for a contract, and he fancies himself in the 4-year/$80M neighborhood. You have to assume he would've shown up in the big moments, like he always has.

Maybe Ramirez crossed a line and there was no going back. But his behavior, his occasional lack of effort, his "Manny being Manny" b.s. has been going on for 5 or 6 years. I didn't hear a lot of complaints when they were winning championships and he was the World Series MVP.

I can't argue the loss of Manny will hurt but lets not sell everyone short. Calling Drew average is unjustified. He is having a great year and I would expect him to continue that for the length of his deal. Tek is shot and the Sox will either sign the best available FA catcher or trade for one. As you say Youk, D-Peds, and the silver fox Lowell are professional hitters. As for Bay's production with RISP, it leaves a lot to be desired but he should fit right in with the Sox as no one seems to be hitting with RISP.

Maybe he would have shown up for enough games to pad his stats and then shut it down during the stretch run.



If he was producing like 5 years ago, all of his antics would have been overlooked. As his production has slipped, he became more and more expendible and his latest behavior punched his ticket out of town.

First, Pittsburgh didn't want Manny, they wanted Prospects for an All-Star OF. They wouldn't have taken a Manny for Bay deal. They also wanted a better deal then what they received from the Yankees. The Red Sox wanted bay to replace Manny's production and to replace him in the field. Plus they wanted to keep him out of Tampa, who was interested in Bay and were just waiting for the manny deal to fall through as they were second in line for Bay.

It takes 2 to trade, and both sides have to feel they got the better of the return for their club, otherwise why make the deal if you don't have to (so some might also say that the Sox had to because Manny finally forced their hand). Its easy to just say that Manny for Bay should be enough, but it was no where near enough because the Pirates weren't in any position to have to trade Bay, so why should they accept less then they want for him?

Now as for Pittsburgh, do they even have any fans left? why would anyone support that team? Atlest when the Marlins do it, they rebuild a contender team and are good for a while until they have a fire sale for their stars again. The Pirates can't even make it to mediocrity and they sell, sell, sell!

I didn't mean Manny to Pitt and Bay to the Sox, I meant Manny to the Dodgers, Bay to the Sox, and the Dodgers prospects to Pittsburgh. There is no reason for the Sox to throw in a young OF and a reliever just for Bay, and the Dodgers give up only two players for Manny.

Good post.

ARRGGGHH! The Sox gave up two guys who weren't in their future plans. The Dodgers gave up 2 top prospects.

@ Red Sox

It could have ended worse...a little anyway.

But what I was trying to say is that the pirates wouldn't take that for Bay, they wanted more then what they got for Nady and Marte, so just sending over those 2 prospects from the Dodgers wasn't enough, they wanted more for bay then what the Sox would take for manny. Manny is gone at the end of the season, no matter where he went to, Bay still has one year left at a very affordable rate. The Sox also wanted Manny out because they were sick of his antics, the Pirates were just looking to get the best return on Bay at his peak.

The red Sox were desperate to get rid of Manny (or pretty close just to rid themselves of the headache), and they needed Bay to replace him in the lineup. They were going to have to overpay for Bay if they wanted him bad enough

I think the Sox really hurt themselves in this deal, at least when it comes to WS contention. Sure Jason Bay is a nice player with the potential to be a real good hitter. But the fact simply remains that he's no manny. Manny was an amazing talent, and as much as sux fans want to deny it, losing him is going to hurt the team. Of Their 2 big horses, Manny and Papi, 1 is now gone and the other is still a question mark at this point as to how well he is going to return and perform. Their offense may have been effectively neutered.

As for JD Drew, he's still one of the biggest wastes of God-given talent i have ever seen, and cannot ever be counted on for solid production.

He may never live up to the hype but I'll take this every year:

-----G---AB--R--H--2B-3B-HR-RBI-TB-BB-SO-SB-CS-OBP-SLG-AVG
2008 93 318 67 90 20 3 19 58 173 62 69 3 1 .401 .544 .283

.283-15-58 is a solid line, but not for 15+ million per season. (and i like drew because he was a 'nole, but man is he a talent tease)

Certainly, those stats are good. But as a player who was a can't miss prospect and top draft pick, it's been a decade of pedestrian numbers and unmet expectations. In addition, he never appears to play with much passion, and looks disinterested at times. I'm not saying that's how he plays, it's just how he appears. When he's hitting well, no biggie, but if he's slumping, fans in a town like Boston will let you hear it if you don't look like you're giving 100%.

That stat line would be a FANTASTIC complement in the #5 or #6-hole to Ramirez's typical .320, 36HR, 120RBI numbers. I know Drew kept the Red Sox afloat when Ortiz was out, but can he do it full time, at the front of the lineup, without Manny lurking near him in the lineup? I suppose we'll find out.

Also, like Ramius said, the stats are certainly fine, but at that price he's underperforming.

It's just Jason being Jason!!!

Unfortunately, the Red Sox have become the Yankees in this regard. He's not worth the money but neither are/were Lugo, Clement, Renteria, etc. They needed a RF and a SS and decided to give them $110 million combined even though neither were deserving. They got their men.

SEASON-TEAM-G-AB-R-H-2B-3B-HR-RBI-TB-BB-SO-SB-CS-OBP-SLG-AVG
1993 Indians 22 53 5 9 1 0 2 5 16 2 8 0 0 .200 .302 .170
1994 Indians 91 290 51 78 22 0 17 60 151 42 72 4 2 .357 .521 .269
1995 Indians 137 484 85 149 26 1 31 107 270 75 112 6 6 .402 .558 .308
1996 Indians 152 550 94 170 45 3 33 112 320 85 104 8 5 .399 .582 .309
1997 Indians 150 561 99 184 40 0 26 88 302 79 115 2 3 .415 .538 .328
1998 Indians 150 571 108 168 35 2 45 145 342 76 121 5 3 .377 .599 .294
1999 Indians 147 522 131 174 34 3 44 165 346 96 131 2 4 .442 .663 .333
2000 Indians 118 439 92 154 34 2 38 122 306 86 117 1 1 .457 .697 .351
2001 Red Sox 142 529 93 162 33 2 41 125 322 81 147 0 1 .405 .609 .306
2002 Red Sox 120 436 84 152 31 0 33 107 282 73 85 0 0 .450 .647 .349
2003 Red Sox 154 569 117 185 36 1 37 104 334 97 94 3 1 .427 .587 .325
2004 Red Sox 152 568 108 175 44 0 43 130 348 82 124 2 4 .397 .613 .308
2005 Red Sox 152 554 112 162 30 1 45 144 329 80 119 1 0 .388 .594 .292
2006 Red Sox 130 449 79 144 27 1 35 102 278 100 102 0 1 .439 .619 .321
2007 Red Sox 133 483 84 143 33 1 20 88 238 71 92 0 0 .388 .493 .296
2008 Red Sox 100 365 66 109 22 1 20 68 193 52 86 1 0 .398 .529 .299


His numbers have been in a steady decline and I would suspect more of the same and possibly more drastically given his age.

Dude is clowning the ball. Just incredible to see what he can do when he wants it. Playing in a situation that made him miserable and he was still a top 10 hitter. Now he is enjoying himself and he is simply disgusting.

.565 4 HRs 9 RBIs and 2 strike outs in 6 games.

Steady decline? Are you looking at the same numbers that you just posted?

Jason Bay is so awesome. I'm very happy with the trade. He hits, play great in the field and is not a cancer.

he some of you had fun when i wrote this... let's check the stats:


Jason Bay 40 G 35 R 48 H 11 2B 2 3B 8 HR 34 RBI 14 BB 43K 3 SB .300 AVG .358 OBP .544 SLG
per 100 games 87.5 R 120 H 27.5 2B 5 3B 20 HR 85 RBI 35 BB 107.5 K 7.5 SB

 Manny Ramírez 100 G 66 R 109 H 22 2B 1 3B 20 HR 68 RBI 52 BB 86 K 1 SB .299 AVG .398 OBP .529 SLG


He's doing better than Manny in all stats but BBs, OBP and Ks....

Good call!

But since the trade Manny is hitting almost 100 pts higher, slugging 200 points higher(!), has more hits, HR, RBI, W and less Ks.

Manny as a Dodger:
Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG
LAD NL 42 152 29 60 11 0 14 43 2 0 25 32 .395 .478 .743

Bay as a Red Sox:
Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG
BOS AL 40 160 35 48 11 2 8 34 3 0 14 43 .300 .358 .544

Ok, but Manny was a POS for Sox before the trade, so they got a really great player and dumped a cancer. It was a very good trade no matter what he is doing in LA

If you assume that Manny wouldn't have put it in gear for the stretch run in Boston; that in the past has been his wont to do.

Well, he's playing in the NL and especially in the NL West!!!